Curse

Seltack · Aug 21, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Kind of split about what I think about this.

I think GvG players need some form of recognition for the fact that they've played GvG. From a personal perspective, I've mainly played GvG for about a year now, not at the highest level, but thats what I've done. If I'd speant that time in HA, even with only winning the hall on a few rare occassions getting 20fame a night in 3 hours I would be a high rank player instead of rank 4. If I'd speant that time in a "hardcore" pve guild farming the crap out of everything I'd have 6 characters in FoW armor. But I have diddly squat, except knowing that I've been having fun playing the only good part of this game. Just seems odd how regular players doing a lot of gvg don't see the rewards of the rest of the game. Maybe a counter of number of GvGs won, but then people wanting it could just tank their ranking and fight rank 3000 teams all the time.

However, its probably a good thing that until recently there wasn't such an indicator as the situation of smurfs/pugs and gimmic builds show. If HA didn't have fame I'd guess that there may be less gimmics as it no longer would come down to farming for shiny emotes so you are able to play with better people to farm rank quicker (I'm sure this must be the reason for playing HA as its not actually fun). So GvG has taken a step towards HA and its now a farm fest with people getting tanked by smurfs and the ladder being less meaningful as there's not really that much of an incentive to be higher than 1200 except for some capes, so the best players might aswell farm a title. Perhaps this situation will be improved when we actually get back into a real season as people will want to be in the top 16 so they won't be able to waste time farming but I presume the next propper tournament will be when nightfall comes out by which point the meta will be about to be completely screwed over with two new classes anyway.

On the plus side it does mean that when you face these faction farmers you avoid the tedium of having to wait to VoD every match because a team you've rolled at the flag stand sit turtled with a ritualist for 20minutes.

Van Goghs Ear · Aug 21, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

I don't know...I always thought being a ranked and rated guild on the ladder and getting to play on TV was reward enough for gvg. Not to mention it's just...fun to play gvg.

But if championship points must stay...I would suggest not allowing guests to earn points (afterall it's about your guild achieving a 1200 rating to be eligable for said points, something that a guest doesn't really have anything to do with), and a player should have to have played in at least 5 gvg matches with the guild in question before being eligable for points.

This community has already displayed time and time again that it isn't responsible enough to not take advantage of farming opportunities. What's next? People paying 'PUG' guilds to take them along for champ points?

JR · Aug 21, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seltack

From a personal perspective, I've mainly played GvG for about a year now, not at the highest level, but thats what I've done. If I'd speant that time in HA, even with only winning the hall on a few rare occassions getting 20fame a night in 3 hours I would be a high rank player instead of rank 4. If I'd speant that time in a "hardcore" pve guild farming the crap out of everything I'd have 6 characters in FoW armor. But I have diddly squat, except knowing that I've been having fun playing the only good part of this game.

Experience and respect are enough for me.

And I agree, not giving guests champion points would go a LONG way towards solving the problem.

tomcruisejr · Aug 21, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Champion points causing elitism? Lets make them worthless by farming them with IWAY-ish builds. Watch out for nightfall.

stueyman2099 · Aug 21, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

We had a match vs one of these PuG guilds on the Jade isle. Things start out, and we get completly owned at the stand. So, we go to turtle, wait for monks to come up, and try to hold up with the guards so we can get some momentum going and push them out. Unfortunatly, they didn't do that, opting to go back to the stand and wait for VoD (20 full minutes) and were complaining that we should come out and lose to them now so they could get thier point faster and move on.

JR · Aug 21, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Champion points causing elitism? Lets make them worthless by farming them with IWAY-ish builds. Watch out for nightfall.

Already happened; Thumpway.

Did 23~ GvGs over saturday morning (pulled an all nighter). 19 Champion points, the guild went from rank 70 to rank 18 (later dropped to rank 24 before the lock). That's only 6 points off having the first level title from one run of GvG, be that quite a hardcore run.

Do I feel bad about 'abusing the system' to farm champ points? Not really, I was bored and it was amusing. It is already pretty widely known amongst most serious GvG players that it is a worthless system. My only regret is that the ladder lock prevented me from getting level 2 champ.

Slightly off-topic, but an amusing picture of the aftermath of the night/morning:

Fanta · Aug 21, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I just think champ points need to go away. I didn't see any complaints before they were implemented.

p.s. JR, Tila is sooo 2002, lol.

Katina · Aug 21, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Slightly off-topic, but an amusing picture of the aftermath of the night/morning:

That's hot.

I agree with whoever it was who said GvGers deserve their "rank" like HA people do. Honestly, anyone who makes a guild that requires the Champion title doesn't deserve anyone's time anyway.

GvGing has totally lost its creativity, once someone uses a build, everyone must use it, good example is obviously the Iway of GvG, thump way, and lets not forget about Derv Way. What rank are EnS and Spearmen now?

I totally respect anyone who runs a decent balanced, and its sad that its come to that in a GvG.

Greedy Gus · Aug 21, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Whilst I would like to agree with your post, I think there will always be idiots who think Champ points seriously mean something.

Agreed, no argument there. But I actually prefer this: if people basically announce their stupidity up front, I will waste less time dealing with them. Sort of like gvg guilds that put any weight on fame while recruiting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

We had a match vs one of these PuG guilds on the Jade isle. Things start out, and we get completly owned at the stand. So, we go to turtle, wait for monks to come up, and try to hold up with the guards so we can get some momentum going and push them out. Unfortunatly, they didn't do that, opting to go back to the stand and wait for VoD (20 full minutes) and were complaining that we should come out and lose to them now so they could get thier point faster and move on.

Maybe I'm thinking of a different guild, but wasn't your guild running a rit and a flagstand ele? I don't blame people for being pissed off when you retreat and turtle for 20 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seltack

If HA didn't have fame I'd guess that there may be less gimmics as it no longer would come down to farming for shiny emotes so you are able to play with better people to farm rank quicker (I'm sure this must be the reason for playing HA as its not actually fun). So GvG has taken a step towards HA and its now a farm fest with people getting tanked by smurfs and the ladder being less meaningful

I think the big difference is the actual emote. A simple title is much less incentive.

BuddyLeeX · Aug 21, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fanta

I just think champ points need to go away. I didn't see any complaints before they were implemented.

p.s. JR, Tila is sooo 2002, lol.

hmmm, WWTD?

What would Tila do?

I think she would say screw it, farm those champ points.

Patrograd · Aug 21, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Slightly off-topic, but an amusing picture of the aftermath of the night/morning:

Lol

Explains your leet monkage on Saturday night then

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 21, 2006, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Maybe I'm thinking of a different guild, but wasn't your guild running a rit and a flagstand ele? I don't blame people for being pissed off when you retreat and turtle for 20 minutes.

Nope, we were still on our triple smite if I remember right. We haven't run a Rit since before last season, and I don't think we've run a flagstand ele either.

I kind of like the idea of making champion points not apply to guests, but what would stop the PuG guilds from just membering all of their players? They already member quite a few of them. It could work well combined with the idea from Van Gogh's Ear though - you have to play in a certain number of matches as a member before you start getting champion points.

Ultimately I think the title is already polluted and probably won't ever mean much. At this stage I just want a solution to the rampant farming.

nebuchanezzar · Aug 21, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Good points. Simple fact so long as a "farmable" resource exists....it will be exploited. It's really as simple as that. Championship rank means "friends list that farmed/rolled/tanked for a few days to get some points.
Easiest solution? Remove the title you remove any incentive to farm. Thumpway may still exist for smurfs to attempt to tank other teams so dont count on that eliminating Thumpway, just the Champ farming.
I don't see ANet doing it though and any other "conditions" are just gonna curb it for a moment until ways around are found easily. Many people dont care about the faction bonus after a gvg so temporary member status easily a no brainer.
Championship points have seriously hurt if not ruined GvG.
I dont see an easy way to remedy it and know there will be many guilds to require it soon and the elitism continues where newer pvper's will never get to that level because they are kept out.

Dzan · Aug 21, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

GvG and TA are what I would consider the only uncorrupted types of PvP left, but I don't see that lasting.

Well I know for a fact TA is significantly more competitive than it was 6 months ago, whether that be due to Factions complicating the meta or Gladiators title encouraging more organized groups. If more competitive PVP is really what people want, rather than claim to want, then we should be happy.

I can see where you would be mad about any sort of gladiator rank snobbery, and I would be too if it ever happened, but I dont think it will be a problem in TA, since most good players rarely pug with total randoms in my experience.

kitiara · Aug 21, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

i know some of you want to see champion fixed so you can get your title and it will mean so of you. As iv seen suggestions for dont give it to guest ect.. but really wouldnt we all be happier with gvg the way it used to be with the champion titles? Anet Please remove chamion titles

Thank you

sixdartbart · Aug 21, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Sno thanks for the topic this has been one my last nerve for awhile and you covered what the biggest problems are with this title.

I've seen a lot of decent solutions to this and doubt that Anet will remove the title completely but it's not a bad idea.
No points for guests - raise the rating to something harder to achieve than 1200 - min # of matches played with the guild as a current member before you can get a point "new membership should erase any previous matches" - and perhaps to make it harder for smurf farming guilds,raise the # of members needed to GvG to 6?
I know a lot of people won't like the last idea and as someone who knows too well the need to sometimes run guestway when a core player is out of town,no shows or everything else that often happens I still wouldn't consider running my teams without at least that many guild members.
I all to often run across teams that we play over and over and kill them with their own members and suddenly they are putting up a good fight

start scanning tags and they have 4 guests from high ranked guilds to try and help them up the ladder. "normally beat them anyway but it is still a joke to see it"

This is far from the only problem with GvGs currently but everything that Sno covered in the OP is adding to GvGs losing the fun that they once had.

As far as guilds starting to recruit only rank 3+ Champions which I do see as something that will probably happen given the current mindset in this silly game they will sure miss out on a lot of great players but it will give me something new to smile about when I see them recruiting

I do so enjoy knowing that with my rank 0 and 10,000 Balth faction that I would never be good enough to join their guilds

"good thing I have my own guild that is more concerned with someones personality than their time farming"

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 21, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

I think the guest system is fine. You ran into the occasional smurf guild before the champion title, but it usually wasn't a big issue for two reasons:

1.) Higher ranked guilds that are smurfing are usually testing stuff. They're trying out new builds or messing around with something for fun. As such, they'll often be a much easier fight than they would be on their main.

2.) There isn't any real incentive to win games on a smurf, so guilds are a lot more likely to be nice about rating tanks. NUKE has a smurf guild and whenever we face anyone significantly above its rank, we've resign-spiked before killing their lord. I think a lot of other guilds would be more willing to do the same if they didn't stand to lose champion points.

TheOneMephisto · Aug 21, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Well I know for a fact TA is significantly more competitive than it was 6 months ago, whether that be due to Factions complicating the meta or Gladiators title encouraging more organized groups. If more competitive PVP is really what people want, rather than claim to want, then we should be happy.

I can see where you would be mad about any sort of gladiator rank snobbery, and I would be too if it ever happened, but I dont think it will be a problem in TA, since most good players rarely pug with total randoms in my experience.

I personally think that it's the gladiator title that has done this. I know that I haven't PUG'd anyone or anything for an extremely long time, and I can say that same about many of the regular TAers. Either you play with guildies or play with friends, the level of the PUGs in TA is just so bad that you never really want to try them.

Faction's complicating the metagame wouldn't do anything if noone played in there.

The fact is that every type of PvP has to have some sort of tangible reward. In HA it's rank and possibly money, in GvG it's guild rank, rating, and fame, in TA it's glad titles.

Patrograd · Aug 21, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

NUKE has a smurf guild and whenever we face anyone significantly above its rank, we've resign-spiked before killing their lord. I think a lot of other guilds would be more willing to do the same if they didn't stand to lose champion points.

i was under the impression that this kind of behaviour was very frowned upon. IIRC Anet are Ok with smurfing (kinda) as long as people play to win in smurf. Deliberately losing strikes me as being ladder manipulation.

Wasteland Squidget · Aug 22, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

i was under the impression that this kind of behaviour was very frowned upon. IIRC Anet are Ok with smurfing (kinda) as long as people play to win in smurf. Deliberately losing strikes me as being ladder manipulation.

Unless Anet actually decides to start doing something about it (which they've shown repeatedly they're not willing to do), I'm really not worried. We'll resign spike against higher ranked guilds because I hate the idea of tanking someone for -25 when they simply don't deserve to lose that much. By comparison, +5 from beating a low-ranked smurf won't affect a team nearly as much, so I see it as manipulating the ladder a lot less.

If Anet feels like coming out with some actual rules on smurfing, I'd be glad to follow them. As-is they've never said anything concrete or (AFAIK) taken action against any team for smurfing. I'd rather go by my own ethics and treat other teams like I'd want to be treated than try to decipher what Anet would want me to do.